You Catch More Flies With Honey

83 Comments

1. Thanks for this post, and thank you especially for mentioning food deserts. One argument I hear a lot is that beans and rice are cheaper than meat, thus “veganism doesn’t require privilege.” The ingredients (legumes, bulk grains, vegetables, etc) for a vegan lifestyle may be inexpensive, but preparing them requires access to kitchen equipment (not everyone has a stove or refrigerator); the time to cook from scratch; know-how (not everyone grows up knowing how to boil water, soak beans, or press tofu, and not everyone knows which foods have strong nutritional profiles); and a way to procure vegan ingredients in the first place. I used to live in a low-income neighborhood (food deserts usually coincide with impoverished areas); there was only one grocery store in a twelve-block radius, but fast food joints and gas stations on every corner. Most people didn’t have cars, so buying a bag of quinoa would require a bus ride (plus transfer), then hauling groceries back on public transportation.

   I eat meat, but rarely; the chicken I eat comes from a neighbor’s free-range farm, and fish come from the lagoon by my home and is harvested in environmentally-sustainable ways. I’m certainly uncomfortable with the meat industry’s practices (especially feedlots and slaughterhouse methods), but I have no issue with animals being killed for food if they are raised and killed humanely. I think there’s a big difference between using an animal for nourishment and killing for entertainment.

   The part of Kat Von D’s post that really got my goat is when she suggested that anyone who eats meat isn’t really an animal-lover, and that all animal killings are equal. By that logic you could argue that pet owners are extremely cruel/selfish–a lot of animals have to be killed to feed a cat or dog over the course of its lifetime, yet people keep pets because we enjoy their companionship. My cats live because other animals die, and that’s fine by me.

   I think most people also have a finite amount of time/money/passion to research/think about/talk about causes that are important to them, so some prioritize differently. Even with food–someone might not be a vegan, but chooses instead to focus their consumer decisions on environmental sustainability (the local food movement) or humane treatment of farm workers (avoiding crops that traditionally exploit migrant workers) or personal health (organics, no processed foods). A lot of these causes intersect, but it takes time to figure out how to be a responsible consumer. It’s not my place to judge someone for picking up a pound of ground beef and a box of Hamburger Helper at the store on their way home from an exhausting shift.

   There’s also a lot of cultural and psychological and emotional stuff tied up with food (cultural historian here!), and it’s pretty presumptive for Kat Von D (or anyone) to demand that someone alter their lifestyle to fit her personal code of ethics.

   1. Thanks for weighing in! I’ve received a ton of hate mail over this post. When I was writing this post, I knew what a food desert was but not that there was a term for it, and I just kept getting messages from people who didn’t realize how privileged they sounded.

      I was more annoyed with the extremists in general who kept saying similar things to me – I’m a murderer for eating meat, I can’t truly love my dog, it’s so easy to be vegan, etc etc. and I just feel like ‘have you ever tried to walk a mile in someone else’s shoes?’

      1. I’m sorry you’ve received hate mail over this! I thought it was a pretty reasonable post. One thing I’ve always admired about your blog/vlog is that even though you’re obviously passionate about issues that your audience might find polarizing, you tend to pair your passion with compassion. : )

         Your “honey vs vinegar” is spot-on: no one is going to become a vegan because they’ve been shamed into it, and extremism is more likely to leave a bad taste in the mouths of people (like me) who are slowly moving towards a more cruelty-free lifestyle.

2. I have a lifetime license to fish in the state of California. I only fish for food, and because it’s something I enjoy doing. I’d like to learn how to hunt, but most likely if I were, I’d aim for something like wild boar, because they are non-native to where I live. I am saddened by all the outrage over this one hunter, and am one who wishes that trophy hunting was not allowed because the animals picked are usually healthiest individuals with the best genetic factors for future generations of their species. However, it’s going to continue happening, as nothing illegal is ever truly banned. Poaching would only increase, and more animals would be harmed in the process.
   Because of health reasons, I cannot be a vegan. I cannot eat too many plant-based foods, so instead I eat what I know I can digest. When it comes to beauty, I am pragmatic. I like to buy cruelty free if I can, but I have a limited budget. Combine the two, and unfortunately not all budget beauty is made the same quality. I’ll take a product that is made by a company that tests on animals because it is in my price range, or has worked for me before. If it’s a dupe of a high-end brand item, even better.
   Unfortunately the problem is that the nice, respectable people are not the ones that you remember, it’s the ones that piss you off that are the ones people know about. There are plenty of hunters that are kind, animal lovers who want nothing but the best, but then one guy has to go kill the real-life version of Kimba the White Lion and everyone gets upset.

   1. Thanks for weighing in! I don’t know if you’ve seen it but I actually created a guide to cruelty free makeup that costs $5 or less https://phyrra.net/2014/11/best-cruelty-free-makeup-5-less.html

3. Beautifully said Courtney! I missed the Kat von D drama, but I don’t feel the need to read up now. This post is a perfect example of why I love you, and your blog. You are kind, to animals and human…compassionate and NON judgmental. So many of the commenters/readers on this post have great things to say. I have to say, I appreciate even more now that my vegan BFF is the most non judgmental person in the world. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!! <3

   1. Thank you so much Amber!

4. I love this post! I am a vegetarian (look up #vegetarianproblems, it’s hilarious!) and I am constantly dealing with people that when they hear me say “i don’t eat meat” what they THINK is said was “i am better than you, please be rude and obnoxious to me and tell me why being a vegetarian is dumb.” People always ask me if what happens if someone eats meat around me, or they ask me if it is going to bother me if they order a steak at a restaurant because they think i am going to start judging them. It really bothers me a lot that people judged me based on a stereotype. But in the end, i find that people that eat meat are more judgmental than those who don’t. I get bombarded with rude statements and questions when i tell people I don’t eat meat, but I never once tried to push my beliefs down the throats of meat eaters. In the end, the way i feel is that if you don’t judge my diet choice, i wont judge yours, simple as that. I will never tell anyone they have to stop eating meat. However, if someone comes to me and tells me that they want to stop eating meat, I will do everything I can to help them out, but i would never tell someone to be a vegetarian if they showed no interest in it.

   1. Thanks for sharing your experience, I really appreciate it! I wish more people felt the way you do.

5. I think what you’re doing with this blog is AMAZING, and I love how kind you are to others!

   1. Thank you so much Carly!

6. Hi Courtney 🙂 this might seem really random, but you should check out the song “Accidental Death” by Rilo Kiley, if you’ve never heard it before. Reading your post immediately brought it to mind for me, as the lyrics are relevant, and I think you might like it 🙂

   1. Thank you! I’ll check it out 🙂

7. I agree. I’m conscious of what I eat, wear and use but I am not vegan. I think veganism is great, but it’s not for me, at least not right now. I won’t give my reasons because, frankly, it’s no one’s business but mine. If I can be ok with you*, why can’t you be ok with me? It’s unfortunate and I hope you “open your eyes” to acceptance the way you want me to open my eyes to animal cruelty.

   Thanks for the post Courtney!

   *You, the relevant reader

   1. I totally agree with you. I’ve had to deal with family members of mine making fun of me because I don’t eat certain types of meat, which is just as bad as the people who harass me for eating meat. When really, it’s my body and my business, as you said.

8. Kat Von D has posted a YouTube video addressing the “controversy” surrounding the Instagram post. She explains herself eloquently about how her veganism is a work in progress – she’s been getting rid of her leather shoes by giving them away so they’re not a waste, (noting she was posting pictures of them as a form of cataloging her 100’s of pairs of shoes) and keeping some leather things that she has emotional attachment to, like her father’s doctor bag. Her taxidermy have always been found animals already passed away in the wild, therefore she is not contributing to any suffering. Her makeup line takes minimum six months for the reformulations to take complete hold, so that’s why she can’t fully claim it’s vegan yet – she explains that’s why Lolita has been out of stock forever because they’re working on the new formulation.She also greatly apologized about offending people as it wasn’t her intention, it’s just something herself she feels strongly about – that if she herself killed a cow, she would feel no different than someone who does it for sport.

   Not all vegans follow a strict “no animal products and burn everything they own that ever came in touch with an animal” She does feel strongly about killing animals for food, beauty, pride, and clothing – but harvesting the animal after they died naturally and free she’s okay with, which in my eyes is fair. By saying “you can’t have cruelty free taxidermy in your home and be vegan”, is like hearing “you can’t support homosexuals and be Christian” to me. It makes no sense to me.

   The reason why I said controversy in quotations is because as a mean eater, hunter, and growing up on a farm were we slaughtered our own animals – I took no offense to her post. It was clumsy and defiantly was taken the wrong way by many because of the way it was worded. But I’m a firm believer in context =/= intent, and she made it clear it wasn’t her intent. I take more offense to some bloggers blindly are bashing her without seeing all sides of the story. I commented on one blog and the reply I got completely sidestepped my points to further their own agenda, which is bothersome to me because they’re not being subjective.

   Thank you so much for this well thought, well written post. There’s been such a blow out about this on both ends and I agree with you completely. But on the flip side of the coin – yes she said something vapid, a bit ignorant, but not incredibly offensive to me, because again – intent, and her heart was in the right place, even if it was preachy.

   Love this blog, I hope one day when mine is up and running I can be as eloquent as you are.

   1. Thank you so much for your kind comments! My blog post was spurred on by multiple extremists, not just Kat Von D (and I plan to make a video to explain that, because she was just one of many people who basically said if you eat meat you’re a murderer).

      I did watch all 30 minutes of Kat Von D’s video. She seemed very shook up to me when she recorded it, like she did not expect millions of fans to be upset with her.

      I took offense to her and other vegans (because multiple people said it to me) who said that anyone who eats meat is a murderer. I personally do not eat cows or pigs, but I do eat poultry and fish. However, I don’t feel that gives anyone the right to shame me over it.

      I personally think the taxidermy thing is weird and not something I would do myself but I’m not bothered by her doing it. Nor am I bothered by her wearing leather. My bff who IS vegan, while she prioritizes shopping for vegan shoes, belts etc, if she can’t find a vegan alternative she will buy the non-vegan item. Many of my friends who are vegetarian are only concerned about food, not about their beauty products or day to day items being cruelty free. I make no judgment on any of them. They’re doing what is the best for them and that’s all you can ask of anyone.

      I think that extremist attitude of ‘my way is the only right way and if you don’t agree with me I’m going to try and shame you into agreeing with me by calling you a bad person’ is awful. It’s really aggressive and it makes many people want to do the opposite of whatever they’re suggesting. It really hurts the cruelty free cause.

      I personally feel like I have done more good with my blog since going cruelty free in 2012 and trying to help people find cruelty free products than if I had done nothing. I feel by trying to show people in a less aggressive way, more people have become aware that animal testing still happens and that there are many brands out there that do not test.

      1. Thank you for all the work that you do. I understand completely being offended by her post, it was very aggressive for sure, but like you said – she seemed shook up and apologized for being offensive, chances are because she had a lapse in judgment and didn’t intend to deeply offend anyone. Again, context =/= intent. She defiantly should learn her lesson, but to complete demonize (people are calling her a Nazi due to confusing her with another tattooed woman and refuse to acknowledge otherwise!) and boycott when she is doing what she can is completely over the top to me. There’s brands out there that have stolen images, claimed to be vegan when they weren’t, and allowed their customers credit card information to be stolen – I find that far more of a reason to boycott than someone who made a jackass comment and immediately addressed it and humbly apologized. If anything it makes me like her more, even though her and I differ in opinion because she made it clear although she feels strongly in hers, she did not intend to disrespect me as a customer and a follower. And to me that is how to make and learn from mistakes, because we forgot with social media nothing is really private anymore and anything and every word can be torn apart.

         1. Yeah I’m definitely not boycotting her brand though some of my friends are. I see the extremists (of all sorts, in general) as being the problem, not Kat Von D individually.

            And yeah, Limecrime has done some pretty terrible things. I was ready to give them a second chance a few years ago and then they stole images from Temptalia and I was like nope nope nope. Recently that credit card fraud / stolen stuff made me sick. So horrible!

9. Thanks for this! It’s so true– positivity is so much more productive than negativity!

10. This post was so well written and educational! One of the many reasons why I love & adore you!

11. I really appreciate this view. I am definitely of the opinion that screaming at someone will never help them to agree with you. Indeed, it’s reasonably likely you’ll either scare away someone who might otherwise have seen things your way, or give more fuel to the fire of someone who is 100% against your views. Being nice is always a good option.

    1. Thank you for commenting! I agree with you, if more people would be nice to each other the world would be a better place.

12. Amen! I also take issue with people who disagree with me, have an issue with the fact that I don’t see exactly the way that they do, and then just dismiss me or what I believe in. Or worse yet, stoop to name calling and low blows- yeah, that is going to make me want to see things their way. Works every time… lol. 😉

    1. Yep, I agree with you!

13. It’s amazing what we DON’T know. I have several vegan friends and coworkers who are all fine examples of the “gentle, positive” approach to educating. I ask questions, they share information and resources and provide solutions which has helped me make small changes. I will unlikely become vegan but I can definitely make better/kinder choices. The biggest turnoff are the militant/extremist statement makers; attaching shame to anything is the wrong way to share a larger message respectfully. Once again, I’m impressed with how you’ve handled/reacted to a situation. Thank you!

    1. Yes exactly! Having someone come and tell me that I’m a murderer because I don’t do exactly what they do is a big turn off.

14. I’m vegan now, but was not raised that way. It took a vegetarian commenting on how eating animals was screwed up for me to start thinking critically about my choices regarding animals. She wasn’t polite or politically correct about it, but instead of being offended my husband and I decided that she had a valid point. Vegans aren’t trying to be “holier than thou” but are simply doing their best to avoid animal suffering and death. There are not a lot of grey areas when a person decides it is not morally feasible to support the eating, wearing or exploitation of animals. Most people see this as “extremist” but it is just logical to live that way once your eyes have been fully opened, and it is the definition of veganism.

    1. Like I said above, being vegan is not something that everyone can do. Some people don’t have enough money to be vegan, some people don’t have access to the right foods to be vegan, some people have a cultural heritage that doesn’t allow for them to be vegan, some cannot do it for health reasons.

       There’s a way to say ‘hey, I don’t eat meat for X, Y Z reasons.’ vs. ‘You’re a murderer for eating meat.’

       1. But if someone has the ability to go vegan, why not? My husband and I live in So-Cal, I have a part-time minimum wage job, and he makes .50 cents over minimum wage. We stick to grains, vegetables, fruits, cereal and soymilk for breakfast. We regard vegan specialty foods as a rare treat. We just prioritize fruits and veggies over other things. I’m not advocating that someone needs to walk five miles in the snow to buy some soy dogs, but maybe visit the produce aisle rather than the frozen meat section. I guess it comes down to the phrase, “When there’s a will, there’s a way”. I used to be on the other side and make fun of animal activists, but I suppose I prefer bluntness, even if it hurts my feelings. I did not feel that her post was offensive, but then apparently there are two versions of what she wrote. Regardless, I want the truth. Even if it means I lose friends, stop going to my favorite fast food joints, and possibly inconvenience people around me. It isn’t about me, it is about the animals.

          1. Here’s a great article for you to read
             http://academicabolitionistvegan.blogspot.com/2013/08/everyday-vegan-racism-white-privilege.html

             To quote:
             “Going vegan “for the animals” generally reflects white privilege. It’s something I have the “luxury” of prioritizing. Some groups, however, are dealing with intense oppression, which necessitates them prioritizing themselves and their community.”

             This is not something that everyone can do.

             1. I’m sorry to have upset you to the point of causing you to block me from commenting on your site. I’ve read your blog for years, and watched your Youtube videos but rarely comment. I know that you can’t know me in real life so I can only tell you that I do not like conflict, and that you have nothing to fear from me. While I usually do not like to argue or debate, it conflicts with my need to speak up for what is true. I am obviously very passionate about this subject, and wanted to speak up on this blog and Kelly’s since I read both on a regular basis. I wish you well.

                Sara Jewell

                P.S. I’m actually of mixed race, but that is another issue.

                1. You’re not blocked? I had major issues with disqus last night because of the other site I managed that I was trying to delete and I’ve had to open a ticket with disqus support.

                2. I can understand you being passionate on this subject, but unfortunately to me you sound just like the rest of the extremist vegans I’ve been contacted by for the past 2 days. You’re doing what is right for you and that’s great. That doesn’t give you the right to try and force your beliefs on me.

15. SPOT ON. Love love this post.

    1. Thank you Stephanie!

16. Good for you, Courtney! I agree with everything you’ve said here. You’re never going to change anyone’s mind by attacking them. Great point about the food desert, too. It’s expensive to eat organic / vegan, and not everyone can afford to go that route. Just do what you believe in and answer people’s questions if they ask. Other than that, leave them alone. We’re not here to judge everyone else’s decisions.

    1. I didn’t even know that there was a name for what the food desert is until someone pointed it out to me.

17. So spot on, I wrote a post years ago and about feminism not being feminine anymore. Really its the way extremist approach it that has left a bad taste. Well put.

    1. Extremists definitely leave a bad taste. It’s not just one person, but all the extremists (and this was mostly prompted by vegan extremists), who can really turn people off to a cause.

18. “You’re better off leading by example and showing people in a useful way why what you believe can be helpful.”

    Couldn’t agree more!

    1. Thank you Maya!

19. Your approach is definitely the right one. When people come at me with an asshole attitude it makes me want to do the exact opposite. I’d much rather have someone explain to me why their way is important to them and then I can decide if it’s also better for me.

    1. Thank you so much for your kind words Brooke!

20. I am a vegetarian and I have been for over 20 years and I HATE vegetarian/vegan extremists since they give the rest of us a bad name. Don’t like meat, don’t eat it. Don’t try to shame people into following your beliefs cause you would like it if they did that to you.

    1. Yeah it really irritates me when people call me a murderer for eating meat, yet they wear leather shoes, have leather handbags, etc.

21. I’m really glad to have read this post from you. I’m not a vegan, but I get veganism. I get what it feels like to empathize with an animal. I also know that our society’s relationship with animals in general is complex, and nothing is black and white about it.

    What I don’t get is when extremist vegans shame non-vegans that are making real efforts to do the right thing. This whole shaming culture isn’t helping the cause. Veganism shouldn’t be a holier-than-thou thing, and it sure as fuck shouldn’t feel like a cult.

    As a non-vegan with a cruelty-free blog, how do you deal with the negative comments? Do they affect you?

    1. Negative comments in general used to upset me to the point of tears. Now, I just shrug them off, or on rare occasion I’ll write a rant or record a rant video to sort of get it out of my system.

       At the end of the day, the extremists’ hateful comments will not stop me from doing what I feel is right – donating to PCRM, HSI, WWF, etc. They will not stop me from keeping with my cause of not wanting to harm animals. I’m also not willing to give up having my dog Phaedra as a pet (as some extremists have said people should do). Dogs were domesticated alongside humans for a very long time.

       You’re entirely right, the shaming culture doesn’t help at all. There is a cult feeling to some of it. And while not all vegans are like that (my BFF is not! She’s an awesome all inclusive vegan), yesterday the ones I encountered inspired this post.

       1. That’s great to hear. I’ll try to remember your attitude! 🙂

22. *Applauds* Exactly, if something is my moral code or religion or whatever, I believe that means I need to live by those rules. Not that everyone else does.

    Very timely in the wake of Kat von D’s Instagram saying the difference between the hunter who killed Cecil and meat-eaters was “NONE” (emphasis hers). She could have used her fame and visibility to educate and raise awareness, and instead she alienated and insulted a lot of people.

    1. Her post was one of the many that spurred me into writing this post. I had other vegans call me a murderer because I dared to say that approved legal fishing and hunting to eat was ok but that trophy hunting was not. I feel like these extremists completely turn people off to being cruelty free.

       1. I personally find it to be just another form of bullying. I don’t know how people justify doing it, “for the animals,” then they treat their fellow humans like crap.

          I eat meat. I have Irritable Bowel Syndrome (not a form the medications treat yet, either), and I don’t get along with a fully vegetarian diet. I personally don’t have an ethical issue with eating meat, but I don’t eat a lot of it for health reasons. I don’t see a problem with hunting for food, either. I am against killing for trophies, sport, or fur/hides. That’s how I live. I donate money to help animals, I try to back any legislation for improving the lives of farm animals, sign petitions, spread the word, etc. I rather put my time into changing how we treat our fellow animals, including the ones some of us are eating, than telling our fellow humans how to live.

          1. Well said!

23. Honestly, I keep most of my beliefs to myself unless it’s supporting an initiative publicly that I believe in (like some of the things for my boys). And by support, I mean showing MY support, not expecting everyone else to agree. Poor Cecil, that entire thing makes me sick to my stomach 🙁 I wish people would just love one another despite differences; respect that we all walk different paths.

    1. I agree with you! If humans showed other humans (and animals) more compassion, the world would be a better place.

24. To sum up – live responsibility people!
    very well said Phyrra!
    If you believe in something passionately, being a dick about it will make people oppose you rather than join you.
    If you feel the laws are wrong, get involved. Speak out, advocate and educate.
    But do it nicely.
    Love you girl! <3

    1. Thank you Melissa!

25. Very well said!

    I started buying cruelty-free only about 2 years ago. So when I talk to people about it (for example, if they suggest a product to me that I know is not cruelty-free and I tell them why I won’t use it), I try to put myself in my own shoes just a few years ago. It wasn’t that I didn’t care, it was that I truly didn’t know.

    I have very mixed feelings about vegetarianism/veganism. I was vegetarian for a while many years ago but was not a very healthy one. I mean, cheese pizza and quesadillas are vegetarian, right? I eventually added back in poultry and fish (still won’t eat red meat/pork, more for personal preference). And lately I have cut back on animal products a lot, I do “vegan before six” most days. When I do eat meat/cheese/eggs, I buy organic and cage-free when applicable. I believe strongly that eating a plant-based diet is better for our personal health and environment. But I also believe that everything can be ok in moderation. I have a few vegan friends, one in particular who is a meat-shamer and it’s kind of exhausting.

    And no, I don’t like hunting at all. But I live in Texas and think I’d go hoarse if I tried to talk everyone I know out of hunting! Plus, I often feel like a hypocrite because I eat some meat. Is one worse than the other? Can I condemn someone for shooting large game when I am eating the flesh of an animal that someone else killed for me?

    1. I think the disconnect between killing your own meat, cleaning it and cooking it vs. buying it at the grocery store makes people appreciate it less (if that makes sense). However, I’m not judging anyone for how they eat -> it’s their body and their health. The decisions I make about what I eat are for my health. For me, I don’t eat cow or pork. I cut back on meat (I eat poultry or fish) and eat it 3 to 4 days a week. I actually have to eat more meat / protein now because of weight lifting, but I try to supplement as much as possible with Muscle Milks, cheese and greek yogurt.

26. Nice!! I don’t eat meat, but my blog isn’t CF. I live by the golden rule and have my own personal code of ethics that involves taking the high road, never making someone feel badly about themselves on purpose and never saying anything you’ll regret in a moment of anger. Of course, that doesn’t always apply when my angry moments crop up. This hunter makes me insane and I’d love to see the outrage ruin his business. I’ve said it for years and I’ll say it again. WE CAN ONLY VOTE WITH OUR VOICES, OUR BALLOTS AND OUR MONEY. I kind of love that so many of us are coming together over our disgust about this giant killer. I too am not bothered by hunting for your own food. But canned, aerial or forced hunts are for low men with small penises who don’t have meaningful lives.

    1. I agree with you so much! We do vote with our money, our ballots and our voices!

27. I couldn’t agree more! I was a vegetarian for a long time, eventually added lean meat to my diet for health reasons. I worried for a long time how that would make me look, but even when I was a vegetarian, I got crap for not being vegan. I could not (and still can’t) for the life of me understand why anyone cares that much about what I do! I have way too many things of my own to worry about anyone else’s choices or beliefs.

    1. I can so relate to what you’re saying!

28. Well said.

    1. Thank you <3

29. I live and let live. I let my actions speak for me; I treat people as I would want to be treated. Well-written, Phyrra! I agree with you 100%.

    1. Thank you Celeste!

30. Totally agree with everything you said here, Phyrra.

    1. Thank you Angela 🙂

31. Well said!

    1. Thanks Brittany!

32. Thank you Phyrra. Your article was beautifully written. I am passionate about many things and have found that leading by example works best.

    1. I agree, Lisa!

33. Bravo!

    1. Thank you 🙂

34. Thank you for this article! I agree 100%. The ability to go vegan is a luxury really, and probably way too expensive for the majority of people around the world. And I agree, being agressive in your beliefs will only scare people away than anything else. Too bad that so many people fail to grasp that. Great article! 🙂

    1. You are very welcome!

35. I agree with you on SO many points in this article. Well, all of them actually, but some really hit home. You’ve said everything I want to say and more, I hope you don’t mind me sharing this post on Facebook!

    1. I would love that 🙂

36. I totally agree with you. It can be so irksome when people try to shove their beliefs down your throat, especially if they get violent about it.

    1. I agree, Kelly!

37. thank you, really bother me when people act like that

    1. You’re welcome Laura!

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